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X Pipe V.S. Stock Y pipe
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)Posted by: Rick Sample
I'm just curiouse on this since it was brought up in another thread, but if I were to change my stock Y pipe to an aftermarket X or H pipe, would my Dual Flowmasters sound louder or about the same and at lower or higher RPM's?
Posted by: KrazyPony
you would get more thoroughput from the headrs if you went with a H or X, I have a H on my exhuast and it gained a tad more horsies that way!
Posted by: CODY2003
Don't do an X-pipe. They don't work right on the V6. A friend of mine had one. didn't sound right, and made his gas milige terrible. Go H.
Posted by: Rick Sample
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Originally Posted by CODY2003
Don't do an X-pipe. They don't work right on the V6. A friend of mine had one. didn't sound right, and made his gas milige terrible. Go H.
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Posted by: KrazyPony
it would be so obnoxiously raspy sounding...
Posted by: CODY2003
Ya, it sounds like a poor idle. Not very good. That's why an H-pipe is better. it equalizes the pressure without actually intersecting the exhaust streams.
Posted by: kmonie360
VERY poor sounding with the X pipe on a v6. I did true duals on my frist car, and this one had them on already. I'd have to say go with the straight pipes
but for being on topic, stick with the Y pipe
Posted by: MustangDewd3.8
You might not gain much power at all with and H or X. Depending on what you are doing to the engine. I know with my 94 (140 HP) and H pipe that I have installed. you'll prolly loose some torque because the v6 engine needs back pressure. with H pipes the engine will breathe easier thus less back pressure hence loss of power. :\ prolly gain power with a Y pipe to dual exhaust. but if you plan for a supercharger or such H or X is the way to go
it will compliment the exhaust pressure increase.
Posted by: EVal95
i beg to differ guys..i have my x
Posted by: 232stang
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Originally Posted by EVal95
i beg to differ guys..i have my x
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Posted by: 3.8steeda
i have a X on my car and to tell you the truth my car sounds great. alot of people tell me that they think i have a Gt with v6 badges. its not as loud as a car without an x when your at a stand still. but i have heard many v6 mustangs with duels and no X or H and they sound like imports when they take off. an X wont do that.
Posted by: 1969Vette
^--- exactly, the Y restricts the flow and then is not flowing as much past the mufflers, giving it a ricey sound
idk about on a v6 mustang, but on any other car an X pipe will give you best power, flow, sound, etc. If its opening up your exhausts too much get differant mufflers. I have an H with the GT takeoffs... the GT mufflers dont open up the exhaust so much that it starts sounding ricey. I had a MAC catback with Y and besides right at startup it sounded like crap. Sound is mainly from the mufflers, everything else before that just adds to the flow through them (Y, H, or X... headers)
the gt mufflers make my v6 sound fairly deep, almost like a GT. the MAC sound ricey as I believe would borla. Magnaflow and flowmaster should sound really good with a turbo or supercharger.
its hard to explain... but from EVERYTHING ive ever read, besides whats posted in this thread, crossovers rank in this order....
best X, good H, crappy and stock Y
X doesnt give too much more power and usually costs more, but it is #1, I got the H with the GT takeoffs for $225, an X alone can cost that or more. as can an H, so the takeoffs are a great deal if it comes with the H.
VETTE magazine: July '03 artice "The X Files" - Do "X" Pipes Really Work?
as tested on a '00 base coupe
baseline:
Max HP - 279.8@5,900RPM
Max TQ - 289.8@4,200RPM
w/ magnaflow wide open mufflers
Max HP - 293.7@5,800RPM + 13.9
Max TQ - 299.8@4,200RPM + 10.0
w/ X pipe (stock H)
Max HP - 295.6@5,800RPM + 1.9
Max TQ - 301.6@4,200RPM + 1.8
As you can see, it does not add much, but if every bit of power, sound, or smoothness counts get an X.
If you're looking at an H and X at a similar price, go with the X.
Posted by: Rick Sample
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Originally Posted by 3.8steeda
i have a X on my car and to tell you the truth my car sounds great. alot of people tell me that they think i have a Gt with v6 badges. its not as loud as a car without an x when your at a stand still. but i have heard many v6 mustangs with duels and no X or H and they sound like imports when they take off. an X wont do that.
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Cool, but I've also heard that if I were to go and put an X or H pipe that I would loose HP because the V6 needs back preasure. If you take the stock Y pipe off, you'll loose the back preasure resulting in less HP unless you had some kind of a forced induction system such as a vortech supercharger.
Posted by: 1969Vette
thats from people who have no idea what theyre talking about, you lower the backpressure to make HP... if you go too far, like straight pipes w/ no cats and mufflers, or something crazy like that you may lose power... mainly low end torque. but thats only if you go too far, like 4in dual pipes on a v6, then you'll lose power.
if you change a muffler to a higher flowing one, you decrease backpressure and increase HP, TQ, MPG, sound... if you put on a dual exhaust while retaining the Y pipe, you decrease backpressure and increase everything again because you have 2 pipes for more freely flowing exhaust... as long as you have say 2.5" pipes, not 4" pipes, you gain power... add a H or X you decrease back pressure and increase everything else...
If we did what they other guy said and not increase backpressure, why dont GTs put on a single 1" pipe? they'd have huge backpressure... and alot less power, because the exhaust wouldnt be getting out of the engine, you'd probably blow it up or at least stall every minute.
if adding a catback or H or X pipe gave you less power, why the heck would anyone ever do it? because you dont lose power, you gain.
Just don't put a cummings turbo deisel 5" exhaust system on your v6 mustang and you'll be making power. check i think flowmasters website, or magnaflow or something, one of them have a chart as to how big of a pipe you can or should go, too little and you're not getting max power, too huge and yes you will lose mainly low end torque.
every kit for a v6 mustang should be dual 2.25 or 2.5"... that opens it up for power and isnt too huge to lose anything.
every car needs back pressure, not just a v6. you'll still have enough back pressure with an X pipe.
Posted by: Rick Sample
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Originally Posted by 3.8steeda
i have a X on my car and to tell you the truth my car sounds great. alot of people tell me that they think i have a Gt with v6 badges. its not as loud as a car without an x when your at a stand still. but i have heard many v6 mustangs with duels and no X or H and they sound like imports when they take off. an X wont do that.
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Posted by: Rick Sample
How would I know what X pipe would fit the V6? I plan on getting headers and an X pipe to go with my dual flowmaster exhaust. Anyone know a brand name that would carry an X pipe for a 1995 Ford Mustang V6?
Posted by: 1969Vette
for me it would be easy because I can just get any X pipe for a GT, compare your pipe size to that of a '95 GT... its the same in '04, not sure about '95.
if it is the same, there you go, get any pipe thats selling for a GT.
and it will sound better because its sending more air past the mufflers. think of it in bees... more flow, more bees (not ricey bees, just regular loud buzzing bees, you could also think lions, elephants, whatever)... a Y is like one or two bees flying past your mufflers... bzzzzzzzz
an H is like 5-10 bees... BZZZZZZZ
an X is like 10-15 bees ..... BBZZBZHPAHOIUDHPWDWIXANXAZXXX ROAR BUZZ!!!
i remember they were talking about a car and saying the exhaust was the deepest they've ever heard because the cars power was just overwhelming the mufflers.... like 50 lions spitting fire breathing bees, like a train charging out of the mufflers....
your Y is like a moped.... weeee wom pom pom pom pom wing wwwwweeeee
an H is like a GT... VROOOm vrooomomm VRROOOOOOOMMM
an X is like a cummings turbo deisel with every bolton and 5 turbos... BBBBBBRRRRRRRRVVRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMM MMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hope this helped
Posted by: Rick Sample
I see what your saying! This summer I might just take it back to the exhaust show and let them order/install the stuff. I know I'm going to be getting 3.5" exhaust tips so they might as well install the X pipe while their at it! It's better than myself ordering the parts and their being the wrong ones
Posted by: kissajew86
wait a second!!!
the x and h pipe on a v8 are effective becasue the fireing order on a v8 is diffrent than a v6.
A v8 5.0 or 4.6 fire nearly the entire left bank then nearly the entire right bank, firing order is listed below.
A v6 fires left-right-left-right.
V8's 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
V6's 1-4-2-5-3-6
In effect the exhaust in a v8 is being used one side at a time. the v6 is useing both sides over an equal amount of time.
the purpose of a x-pipe or a h-pipe is to allow a v8 engine to use both sets of pipeing. if they didnt have the crossover pipe one side of the exhaust just sits there for half a rotation while the other bank is firing.
on a v6 the crossover pipe is very insignificant. the reason for this is the banks have fired simotaniously and both exhaust pipes are being used at the same time anyways.
SUMMERY:
On a V6 X or H pipes do nothing but alter sound. straight through mufflers are just as good. Do not get the crossover pipe as a preformance modification.
On a V8 a X or H pipe is very valuble for preformance and sound.
Posted by: kissajew86
And 1969Vette the next time you want to go off on the lions and bee's...please double check your info!
the x-pipe is generally better than a h-pipe becasue it's flow is more fliud...at least that is what i have read
however i belive people generally say to stick with an h-pipe for more tq, an x for more hp....
but then again this ALL pertains to a v8. With a v6 this theory does not function becasue of our firing order.
Posted by: Rick Sample
So your saying not to bother with an X-pipe as it will only alter sound and no gain/loss in HP/TQ?
Posted by: kissajew86
it will not gain hp, it will alter sound
again this is all becasue of the firing order
Posted by: kissajew86
http://3.8mustang.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63637
here is a very extensive write up about v6 exhaust.
it is quite good
Posted by: Rick Sample
Did you hear the exhaust clip of GreenSteeda's V6? That thing sounds almost identical to a GT! http://3.8mustang.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1135455371
He's runing all MAC Performance stuff. From the wrighup it looks like long tube headers really make a difference in sound correct? Would this setup work for me or would I need to find some professional help?
94-97 2.5" Long Tube Catalytic H-Pipe
94-97 1 5/8" Long Tube Header - Ceramac Coated
Dual flowmaster exhaust 2.25" (Already on the car)
Posted by: 1969Vette
lions and beesyou make good points, but you're forgeting that you're going from 2 pipes, to 1 pipe, then back to 2. when it crosses into that 1 pipe (Y pipe) the exhaust loses momentum and creates more backpressure. an H allows the exhaust to continuosly flow through 2 pipes with fairly equalized pressure, just because they fire at the same time, the pressure is not 100% the same. and flowing through 2 2.25" pipes is better than flowing through 1. an X is better than H because it more effectively equalizes the pressure. in an H it has to take a 90* turn and in the middle of the H is only about a 1/2-1" hole, not the full 2.25" of pipe size. an X does not have to turn 90*, it makes a slight turn and is practically straight through.
if you think a Y is better, go ahead and stick with or buy a differant Y pipe. While your at it, downgrade to 1/2 inch exhaust pipes, double your cats, put like 10 mufflers and let me know how much horsepower youve gained.
i know what im talking about and everyone else who has bought or sells Hs, Xs, shorty headers, long tube headers, high flow cats, high flow mufflers, etc. know what they are talking about.
If higher flow and less back pressure loses HP why is it one of the firsrt mods that almost everyone does and talks about? why do they make everything high flow?
as long as you dont go with straight pipes with no cats or mufflers, you will be gaining power... you cant go too low in back pressure, or then you will lose power, other that that you will gain.
Posted by: 1969Vette
"And 1969Vette the next time you want to go off on the lions and bee's...please double check your info!"
read your own link, it says everything ive said, minus the bees!
Posted by: Xerxeese
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Originally Posted by Rick Sample
Did you hear the exhaust clip of GreenSteeda's V6? That thing sounds almost identical to a GT! http://3.8mustang.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1135455371
He's runing all MAC Performance stuff. From the wrighup it looks like long tube headers really make a difference in sound correct? Would this setup work for me or would I need to find some professional help? 94-97 2.5" Long Tube Catalytic H-Pipe 94-97 1 5/8" Long Tube Header - Ceramac Coated Dual flowmaster exhaust 2.25" (Already on the car) |
Posted by: RGR
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rick Sample
I'm just curiouse on this since it was brought up in another thread, but if I were to change my stock Y pipe to an aftermarket X or H pipe, would my Dual Flowmasters sound louder or about the same and at lower or higher RPM's?
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You will get more flow to the 2 muffs, so it will be louder at all running RPM's.
X pipes seem to work best on the really hot setups. Since the V6 is even-fire
it does not need a crossover of anykind as bad as an odd-fire V8 but to damp
out minir pulse variations, I'd run a crossover on any hot setup with a cam
or more mods. Eval does need his!
Posted by: kissajew86
1969vette - please read my post. As stated it does not make a diffrence to have a crossover in there. True duals will do just as good. yes removeing the y pipe increases flow, but there is no need to connect the 2 banks on the engine with the crossover....
I have straight through pipes becasue i need the flow....no y pipe, just straight back
i dont think the turbo would like a y pipe
Posted by: 1969Vette
Y = not true duals...
im not trying to argue, you make good points, a v6 may not need an H or X, but yes it will help in power, smoothness, and sound... thats all im saying. If you have the money go with X or less money go with H... if not stick with your Ys. you wont gain a ton from an X over an H, but you will gain, not lose.
Posted by: kissajew86
Quote:
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Originally Posted by 1969Vette
Y = not true duals...
im not trying to argue, you make good points, a v6 may not need an H or X, but yes it will help in power, smoothness, and sound... thats all im saying. If you have the money go with X or less money go with H... if not stick with your Ys. you wont gain a ton from an X over an H, but you will gain, not lose. |
Posted by: 1969Vette
love the drawing, Y pipes suck
Posted by: RGR
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Originally Posted by 1969Vette
Y = not true duals... ABSOLUTELY
im not trying to argue, you make good points, a v6 may not need an H or X, but yes it will help in power, smoothness, and sound... thats all im saying. If you have the money go with X or less money go with H... if not stick with your Ys. you wont gain a ton from an X over an H, but you will gain, not lose. |
benefit from a crossover tube. But generally it is the higher HP ones. I should
know, I have been into this V6 Mustang thing, heavily, longer than anyone
else in the USA. I've seen it all, and it does work on paper too, imagine that
the tubing is still 2" all the way thru but you have true duals, (no Y, X, or H)
2 mufflers and 2" tail pipes. The stock cam has 202* .050" duration and of
course, the cam turns at 1/2 speed compared to the crank. So call that a
"spike" of 101* exhaust flow.
101* x 3 cylinders and you get 303* of exhaust flow out of 360*. You also
have 3 evenly spaced "troughs" of low pressure. Now consider the other
bank... the three Spikes are timed exactly upon the 3 Troughs of the opposing
bank and using a crossover allows smoother, more consistent flow in the
same size tubing. Smaller tubing means higher velocity and better wave
tuning, or "scavenging" if you like that term.
BUT why can't I just use bigger tubing on each bank? You can, but velocity
will drop off, and the Torque peaks will climb slightly higher, mileage will
suffer a bit, HP peaks will be down but slightly higher in the range...
Of course, I'm comparing all this to "ideal" but I think you get the idea.
I'm not saying I think 2" true duals are ideal either, it's probably closer
to 2.25" with a crossover for most 3.8's running NA with HCI, and I've
done plenty of those! Most 4.2's (NA) and blown 3.8's probably like a
2.5" system, many could probably still run a 2.25" but most guys with
a stroker or blower are looking forward to when they can up the boost
or other things that cause the need for more flow.
The above kinda demonstrates why some get a boost from a crossover
(their tubing is relatively small) and some don't. (their tubing is big enough
or too big already) Crossovers allow more flow thru the same sized duals
as compared to non-crossover. "Y's" are just junk unless you get like
2-2.25" inlets and a 3"-3.25" outlet, using 2" for all three is just useless!
(factory setup is like this) It chokes out at higher RPM's.
Don't bust me on the degrees of exhaust flow above, I simplified it as much
as possible, it is actually 606* exhaust flow for 720* crank revolution, I
just reduced it down to the effective 360* parameter for simplicity.
Posted by: Rick Sample
Damn you guys are confusing lol
Posted by: OldFart
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rick Sample
I'm just curiouse on this since it was brought up in another thread, but if I were to change my stock Y pipe to an aftermarket X or H pipe, would my Dual Flowmasters sound louder or about the same and at lower or higher RPM's?
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My understanding:
1. H-pipe will cancel out much of the high frequency and enhance the low frequency sound. So you'll get more of an old style rumble from an H-pipe. (Which is why Ford made the H-pipe stock on the 05 GT.)
2. X-pipe will enhance a certain of range of higher frequency sound - up to a point and will then get very loud at higher rpm's. (I can testify to this as I'm running an X-pipe. It's very quiet at cruise rpm and loud as hell above 3,800 rpm.)
3. Mufflers with baffles (like Flowmasters) enhance low frequency and cancel much of the high frequency. Deep, loud rumble even at low rpm.
4. Mufflers with a perforated tube (like Borla) and packing behind the tube cancel much of the annoying high frequency and some of the low-frequency and are generally quieter than baffle style mufflers at lower rpm, but can be very loud at higher rpm.
5. A shoot-out tech article by the same magazine has proven that an X-pipe flows better than an H-pipe, and that the perforated tube style muffler flows better than a baffle style muffler. However, the difference was less than a few horsepower and ft/lbs of torque - so let your ear be your guide unless you just have to have every last bit of performance.
I suggest you con a friend out of his back issues (the last 5 months or so) of Mustangs and Superfords and read the articles for yourself. They will give you all the information you need to make an educated decision.
Good Luck,
OldFart
Posted by: Aussie XAXB
Thanks for all the insight.
Steve
Posted by: kissajew86
good info
Posted by: Rick Sample
Great info!
Posted by: MCRPARTS
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Originally Posted by Rick Sample
Great info!
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Posted by: Aussie XAXB
Old school is always better!
Steve
Posted by: RGR
Quote:
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Originally Posted by OldFart
1. H-pipe will cancel out much of the high frequency and enhance the low frequency sound. So you'll get more of an old style rumble from an H-pipe. (Which is why Ford made the H-pipe stock on the 05 GT.)
2. X-pipe will enhance a certain of range of higher frequency sound - up to a point and will then get very loud at higher rpm's. (I can testify to this as I'm running an X-pipe. It's very quiet at cruise rpm and loud as hell above 3,800 rpm.) 3. Mufflers with baffles (like Flowmasters) enhance low frequency and cancel much of the high frequency. Deep, loud rumble even at low rpm. 4. Mufflers with a perforated tube (like Borla) and packing behind the tube cancel much of the annoying high frequency and some of the low-frequency and are generally quieter than baffle style mufflers at lower rpm, but can be very loud at higher rpm. 5. A shoot-out tech article by the same magazine has proven that an X-pipe flows better than an H-pipe, and that the perforated tube style muffler flows better than a baffle style muffler. However, the difference was less than a few horsepower and ft/lbs of torque - so let your ear be your guide unless you just have to have every last bit of performance. OldFart |
The sound tuning aspects slightly differ for a V6, and the HP/TQ variances
may tend to be lessened on a V6 as well. For us V6 owners the crossover
will do mainly 2 things:
1. Modify sound.
2. Allow a slightly small dual system act "bigger" and make more power.
Excellent post OF, I just wanted to add some V6 perspective.
Posted by: houg
[
lost in horseppower.
quote=kissajew86]http://3.8mustang.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63637
here is a very extensive write up about v6 exhaust.
it is quite good[/quote]
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