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OBD Inductive learning?????
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Posted by: OldFart

Learned something entirely new this past week. As usual - it wasn't much fun.

The original plan was to pick up some tuning software that allows reasonably easy tuning by the end user (and tuning of more than one vehicle). The intent was to be able to reset my son's tune from 89 to a 93 octane tune for days when he was going to the track. The manufacturer volunteered to show me how to use it on my own car.

As a safety feature, the software insist on downloading the stock tune (so you don't lose it by overwriting it) prior to uploading the new tune. So we downloaded my current tune off another "box", uploaded the stock tune, connected my new "box" and read the stock tune and then re-loaded the tune I was running and very happy with.

All this seems pretty straight forward - except the car would start but refused to accept any input whatsoever from the throttle pedal, it would only idle. Over a two day period, the software wizard (the guy who actually wrote the software) tried numerous fixes before he advised:

This new computer has the capacity for "inductive learning". Which means that something can be degrading over time, and the computer learns this and compensates for it. By over-writing the tune, we had lost the inductive learning and compensation the computer was making.

The wizard insisted that the aftermarket 62mm throttle body was the culprit and we needed to change back to the stock unit. I admit that I was somewhat sceptical about this. But lacking any reasonable argument (and really wanting my car to run) we changed out to the stock unit - and the car cranked right up and had no further problems. Can't argue with success - the wizard was right.

I have no idea what was wrong with the aftermarket throttle body (and I haven't given up on it yet - especially since it was good for 20 rwhp and 18 ft.lbs and I've been running for 7 months) but it brings to mind that BBK delayed shipping their new throttle body about 4 months while they changed from brass gears to plastic gears (the 62mm has brass gears). I need to call them and ask why this was important.

So all of you running the 62mm (marketed under Granatelli, CMR, Moto Blue, etc.) just be aware of this little issue. There is something about this TB and the "inductive learning" that can cause you real grief.

OldFart

Posted by: nomad_dave

Oh, I'm so glad someone else is going through this before me. Good to hear your stories again. BTW, did you see the new Ford Bold Moves commercial where the father and son take the GT out around the block and where Dad says that its no toy etc.... Any resembelence to you?

Cheers,
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldFart

Learned something entirely new this past week. As usual - it wasn't much fun.

The original plan was to pick up some tuning software that allows reasonably easy tuning by the end user (and tuning of more than one vehicle). The intent was to be able to reset my son's tune from 89 to a 93 octane tune for days when he was going to the track. The manufacturer volunteered to show me how to use it on my own car.

As a safety feature, the software insist on downloading the stock tune (so you don't lose it by overwriting it) prior to uploading the new tune. So we downloaded my current tune off another "box", uploaded the stock tune, connected my new "box" and read the stock tune and then re-loaded the tune I was running and very happy with.

All this seems pretty straight forward - except the car would start but refused to accept any input whatsoever from the throttle pedal, it would only idle. Over a two day period, the software wizard (the guy who actually wrote the software) tried numerous fixes before he advised:

This new computer has the capacity for "inductive learning". Which means that something can be degrading over time, and the computer learns this and compensates for it. By over-writing the tune, we had lost the inductive learning and compensation the computer was making.

The wizard insisted that the aftermarket 62mm throttle body was the culprit and we needed to change back to the stock unit. I admit that I was somewhat sceptical about this. But lacking any reasonable argument (and really wanting my car to run) we changed out to the stock unit - and the car cranked right up and had no further problems. Can't argue with success - the wizard was right.

I have no idea what was wrong with the aftermarket throttle body (and I haven't given up on it yet - especially since it was good for 20 rwhp and 18 ft.lbs and I've been running for 7 months) but it brings to mind that BBK delayed shipping their new throttle body about 4 months while they changed from brass gears to plastic gears (the 62mm has brass gears). I need to call them and ask why this was important.

So all of you running the 62mm (marketed under Granatelli, CMR, Moto Blue, etc.) just be aware of this little issue. There is something about this TB and the "inductive learning" that can cause you real grief.

OldFart

Posted by: OldFart

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomad_dave

Oh, I'm so glad someone else is going through this before me. Good to hear your stories again. BTW, did you see the new Ford Bold Moves commercial where the father and son take the GT out around the block and where Dad says that its no toy etc.... Any resembelence to you?

Cheers,
David

I haven't seen that commercial yet.

But as to the father/son relationship, I've been very lucky so far. Since we both race on the track, he has been driving like a sane person on the street. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and rubbing my rabbits foot though.

OldFart

Posted by: Donna

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldFart

That is the coolest commercial. Here it is. check it out..

http://media.putfile.com/Bold-Moves-Mustang

Posted by: OldFart

Being loath to give up my after-market 62 mm throttle body (and the 20 hp and 18 ft/lbs that go with it), I decided to have another go at it this morning.

I cleaned up the throttle body real good (with brake cleaner – what else), and then carefully applied a good quality lube to the appropriate parts. The operation is pretty straightforward. The only adjustment is to the internal stop for the butterflies. It either operates freely – or it doesn’t.

I then removed the stock throttle body, which involves removing the CAI (or stock airbox), three electrical plugs and the 2 bolts and 2 nuts that hold the throttle body to the intake manifold – again pretty straight-forward.

I figured the butterfly setting was critical (don’t really know but I’m leaving nothing to chance here) so I put a feeler gauge on the closed gap and set the after-market the same.

Next is the tricky part. You have to remove the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) and the Throttle Actuator from the stock unit and install on the after-market unit. The TPS is a breeze (just make sure to keep the butterflies closed and install it the same way it came off). The actuator involves a return spring that must be pre-tensioned.

The manufacturer says one turn of pre-tension, the dealer (who supposedly tested the units prior to selling) says three turns of pre-tension. Since the stock unit had one turn, that’s what I used on the after-market. Additionally, you are supposed to have a "special tool" to set this pre-tension (which I have long since lost in my super fund clean-up site garage).

Instead, all that is necessary is to stretch the spring slightly so that it makes contact with the seat in the throttle body and the seat in the actuator at the same time, and with the actuator held about 1/2" away from the throttle body, carefully spin the actuator to set the pre-tension (keeping a careful eye to insure both ends of the spring remain properly seated), seat the actuator on the throttle body, and then replace the six screws that hold it on. Then reverse the above removal process for re-install.

So I took a break, got a cup of coffee (it’s 7

0 am), made sacrifice to the horsepower gods (poured a beer on the tires), had a leisurely smoke and fired it off – HOT DAMN!!!! IT’S WORKING LIKE A CHARM. I let it idle to warm-up and then rapped the throttle a few times and it’s working just as good as it ever did. I can’t wait to take it for a drive.

So, I let it idle while I feverishly tightened the mounting bolts for the CAI and removed all the tools from the engine bay, put everything back in the garage, dropped the hood, jumped in for a spin around the block – AND THE CHECK ENGINE LIGHT IS ON AND IT’S IN LIMP MODE AGAIN AND DOES NOT RECOGNIZE THE ACCELLERATOR PEDAL - AGAIN!!!!

I was sooooooo pissed that I buttoned everything up and came in to write this update before going back out to change back to the stock throttle body - again.

There may be a really good reason BBK isn't shipping their throttle body. (Every internet seller I've called is "out of stock".)

There is no joy in mudville.

OldFart

Posted by: KartRacer39

You have me worried since I have installed the GMS version of that Throttle Body. It has been On my car for over 4 months and 10,000 plus miles without a problem whatsoever, But I am wondering if I shall encounter this same issue soon or not. Thanks for all your testing for us OldFart. and for the insite into what may be a cost saving experience for me!!!

Richard/AKA Kartracer39

Posted by: OldFart

Quote:

Originally Posted by KartRacer39

You have me worried since I have installed the GMS version of that Throttle Body. It has been On my car for over 4 months and 10,000 plus miles without a problem whatsoever, But I am wondering if I shall encounter this same issue soon or not. Thanks for all your testing for us OldFart. and for the insite into what may be a cost saving experience for me!!!

Richard/AKA Kartracer39

Mine ran great from late December 05 right up to the point that the computer was re-flashed (around six months and 11,000 miles). I think it would still be running great with it - if I had not re-flashed the ECM.

With the after-market throttle body and custom tuning, I could out run other 05's that had 4.10's, CAI, headers and (off-the-shelf) tuning and ususally passed them in 2nd gear. (Which really pisses them off when they find I'm only running 3.73's.)

I think the old story "If it's not broke, don't fix it" really applies here. If I had just left mine alone, I likely wouldn't be having this problem. Certainly, had I known before-hand of the trouble this was going to cause, I never would have gone there.

So just keep running yours and let the rest of us know if you do experience any related problems.

Good luck,
OldFart

Posted by: KartRacer39

Thanks for the info , And I'll keep watching your posts for the future of our 3-Valve Powerplants

Posted by: OldFart

Quote:

Originally Posted by KartRacer39

If it's running good - don't get it re-flashed. All my problems began at that point.

Due to the loss of my throttle body (and the performance that went with it) I've been spending more time than usual at the custom tuners shop.

What I'm hearing isn't good:

1. For reasons unknown to anyone at this time, the ECM will suddenly cause the engine to run very lean. While a stock or bolt-on engine can survive this, it's been a death nell to power-adder (supercharger, NOS, etc.) engines.

2. There have been a rash of driveability issues with supercharged engines, even the Ford sponsored Roush stage III supercharged engine is having these problems. It seems the there is no in between. It runs great flat-out but runs like crap for daily driving. And there is still the issue of number 1 above for these engines. (Some of you out there that have installed a supercharger should offer up your opinions on driveability for the rest of us.)

3. BBK hasn't shipped their new throttle body - and won't tell anyone when they will be shipping it. The party line is "next month", but that's been the story since September of last year.

4. All the tuners (SCT, Diablosport, Sniper, etc.) are frantically researching these issues, in an effort to be the first to solve the problem - but no one has had any success to date.

The bottom line is that this new ECM is giving everyone fits (including Ford) and it seems there is always some new twist popping up that no one has ever seen befor or knows how to overcome.

Personally, my car is running like crap right now. I really miss the extra Hp and torque from the throttle body, and I've developed a miss in one cylinder. I've had it re-flashed with a less aggressive tune in hopes that it was just an issue of the timing being too far advanced - no such luck - it's still running like crap.

My next big hope is I've got an injector going bad, so I'll be changing out to a spare set of injectors today and pulling a compression check on all the cylinders while I'm at it.

Keeping my fingers crossed.

OldFart

Posted by: KartRacer39

Bringing up this old thread for the purpose of a little discussion about some issues I finally encountered. Aftermarket Throttle Body is now a 400 dollar paper weight. And the purchase of a complete unit at Ford was required due to what I think was ford using substandard parts ( plastic drive on the TPS ) IMHO. but anyway the new tps has metal drive slots , Hmmmm was ford aware of this? Maybe!!! I still believe that this part caused my actuator motor to over work and the car runs perfectly and A/F ratios are stable again unlike they have been for a few months it started getting extremely rich and no tune or adj was helping. thus this problem and now a new tune has moved the 05 into a new level @ 507.80 hp , Thus I am pleased as yet.

If you read all this thanks for Reviewing my Rant!!!

Posted by: Bullitt06

I've had a Paxton 2200 novi w/intercooler for about 7 months now and have even had it reflashed with a new tune done at a local shop and added a 3" off rd. X pipe and have had no drivability problems so far. I will keep my fingers crossed just to be safe.