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Fays2 Watts link
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Posted by: OldFart

I had a great time yesterday.

I've been begging and pleading with Jim Fay of Fays2 Watts link for about three months to develop a Watts link for the 05/06 Mustang.

Well, he did. And then he sent the pre-production prototype to me for testing - so I did. I installed the prototype, took it to the track and ran the crap out of the car and the Watts link. IT IS BEYOND BELIEF.

All I was really after was to get rid of the panhard and the axle movement and right rear bias that comes with the panhard. I got a lot more than I bargained for or ever imagined.

All aspects of weight transfer are improved.

Straight-line acceleration (drag launch) is improved, with less wheel spin. With the axle firmly planted and not moving during front-to-rear weight transfer the car hooks up and hauls ass with very little wheel spin.
Braking is improved from low to very high speed.
Cornering traction in both the front and rear is improved beyond belief. An order of magnitude better. (A good story about that later.)
High speed stability is vastly improved. With the panhard, the car was a little twitchy over 100 mph on uneven surfaces. With the Watts link it was rock solid at all speeds.
It's much easier to hold a cornering line than before, on both entry and exit the car tracks and grips much better than with the panhard.
If I was carving corners before - now I'm using a scalpel like a surgeon. The link makes everything so much more precise.

During the final maneuver of testing, I was running a very wide offset slalom at maximum acceleration in an attempt to break traction, since I had been unable to break traction in prior attempts.

At the sixth turn-in, (which was a hard right, loading the left side of the car) I experienced snap oversteer at approximately 100 mph. I was unable to recover due the high rate of speed, and this led to a rather spectacular track departure off the right side of the course with the car pointing 180 degrees back in the direction it came from.

This sideways slide through the grass ploughed rather large furrows for about thirty meters and ended with a cloud of dirt and dust over twenty feet in the air. Observers were very impressed with this event. Since I stopped only three feet from a ditch filled with water - I was pretty impressed too. I also made a quick check to see if I needed a change of underwear.

Testing was stopped and the car and the Watts link were examined (and so the tester could chill-out for while and stop shaking). What I discovered was that I had bottomed out the left rear suspension, something I had previously been unable to do at any speed, because with the panhard set-up, I lost traction well before I could come anywhere close to bottoming the suspension. So, I trimmed the top lobe off the bump-stop and had no further problems.

This Watts link is hands down the best bang for the buck suspension improvement I've ever seen. The worst thing was that I had to take it off and send it back so they can use it to make the jigs for the production version. After driving the car with the Watts link, going back to the panhard really bites.

But the production versions will be ready in about 4 to 5 weeks - and I'm first in line.

OldFart

Posted by: redbullet

sum-b*tch..... keep us posted.

Posted by: OldFart

Thought I should add a photo of the Fays2 Watts link pre-production prototype.

The main differences between the prototype and the production version are:

1. The square tubing will have smooth bends, without the indentions or crimps shown on the prototype.

2. The production version will be powder coated instead of painted.

As you can see, this is built very stout and meant for serious race duty.

OldFart

Posted by: redbullet

That's a solid looking piece. By your account, I am guessing that it articulates around the center better?

I've got the Edelbrock trailing arms and center link waiting for install. All non adjustable but the trailing arms do have the captured spherical bearing in the chassis end and I have Steeda's bearing for the diff end.

Have you changed the mounting bracket for the center link? That's the only thing yet that I need to order. I am looking at the BMR piece.

Posted by: Aussie XAXB

Sounds very interesting and good. It certainly looks like a quality item, especially without the crimps as in the prototype. Must be cool to be able to test prototype stuff like that.

I love your linguistical savy in the use of the term "track departure." I was also glad to read that you did not have an "undergarment event" as well.

Steve

Posted by: KartRacer39

Old Fart , Would you post a pic of it installed. My curiosity is gettin the better of me. And Keep us posted when this final product will become availiable to the common man. Also any Clearance issues with 3" exhaust?

Thanks In Advance, Richard

Posted by: KartRacer39

i went to his web site and seen some pics of the 1965-1973 cars but I am still curious as to what it looks like on one of our S197 cars.

heres the link where I found some info on them: http://www.fays2.net/index.html

Posted by: OldFart

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbullet

That's a solid looking piece. By your account, I am guessing that it articulates around the center better?

I've got the Edelbrock trailing arms and center link waiting for install. All non adjustable but the trailing arms do have the captured spherical bearing in the chassis end and I have Steeda's bearing for the diff end.

Have you changed the mounting bracket for the center link? That's the only thing yet that I need to order. I am looking at the BMR piece.

I'm a real fan of BMR so this is tough.

I tried the BMR upper mount but had some difficulty with it. It's good points are that it is built from much heavier stock than the OEM part. It also has two mounting hole locations for the upper arm to bolt up to.

The theory on the two locations is that if you have lowered the car (which most of us have) you can use the upper location (closer to the body) to keep the angle of the upper arm closer to stock geometry.

Now the downside. On the stock mount, you can remove or reinstall the bolt on the upper arm with the mount installed. This isn't possible with the BMR part. In either the upper or lower of the two bolt hole locations, the bolt hits the rear seat pan and cannot be inserted into the bolt hole. So you have to assemble the upper arm to the BMR mount, then bolt the BMR upper mount to the body. (Not a big deal unless you didn't know this.)

The other issue is a major concern. If your car is lowered more than 1.5" and if you use any upper arm except the BMR fixed upper arm, you will experience what is becomming known as the infamous "slap".

Whether you opt for Metco, Steeda or anyone else's parts, the upper arm is larger than the stock (or BMR) part. Regardless of whose parts, the axle rotates to some degree when you accelerate and let off. Under acceleration the differential snout lifts and then drops when you decelerate. When it lifts, because the after-market upper arm is bulkier than stock and has less clearance, the upper arm "slaps" the body. This sounds like someone just hit the underside of your car with a 20 lbs sledge hammer and will make you want to stop driving the car for fear of damaging something - and you might - it's hard on the pinion bearing.

Through trial and error (an expensive way to do things) I've found the only set-up that works well on a lowered car is to use the BMR parts for both upper and lower arms. Since the BMR upper is fixed, you need the BMR adjustable lower arms to adjust pinion angle. It is a bit more difficult to adjust two lower arms, and keep the axle aligned, and get the correct pinion angle setting, than to adjust a single upper arm.

But it works well and without the "Slap".

The "slap" problem and other issues is why so many of the pre-packaged aftermarket cars are using 20" wheels with low profile tires to fill up the wheel well instead of lowering the car. Ok for looks but not so good for any type of racing as the unsprung weight and rotating mass of a 20" wheel is considerably greater than that of just about any other size wheel/tire combination.

Hope this helps.

Good luck,
OldFart

Posted by: OldFart

Quote:

Originally Posted by KartRacer39

Old Fart , Would you post a pic of it installed. My curiosity is gettin the better of me. And Keep us posted when this final product will become availiable to the common man. Also any Clearance issues with 3" exhaust?

Thanks In Advance, Richard

A few folks are curious about how the Fays2 Watts link looks installed. The only photo's I have right now are of the very first pre-pre-production prototype that was made just to address fit-up and clearance issues. It is installed on a V6 and not my GT, but the install is exactly the same on a GT.

As to clearance issues, consideration was given in the design to allow for clearance of an aftermarket differential cover and aftermarket, slightly oversized exhaust. As you can see from the photo, it shouldn't be a problem.

The production unit will be smooth bends and a powdercoat finish

The unit just bolts up to the panhard bar and brace locations.

Please keep in mind, the photo's are of a welded "fit-up" part that was never intended to even be driven, just fabricated and installed to prove all the angles and fitting that would be necessary to fabricate the pre-production prototype. The production version will look similar to the prior photo's posted above, except with smooth bends.

OldFart

Posted by: OldFart

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie XAXB

Sounds very interesting and good. It certainly looks like a quality item, especially without the crimps as in the prototype. Must be cool to be able to test prototype stuff like that.

I love your linguistical savy in the use of the term "track departure." I was also glad to read that you did not have an "undergarment event" as well.

Steve

Yeah, but the undergarment event was a close thing. The whole time (which seemed like an eternity - one of those everything slows down trips) I was wondering which would be worse, hitting a large water filled ditch at 80 to 90 mph or rolling the car (and maybe still ending up in the ditch).

It was a close thing - I had to check.

OldFart

Posted by: OldFart

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbullet

sum-b*tch..... keep us posted.

I spoke to Jim Fay today, he expects to be able to start shipping the new 05 Mustang Watts link in about 2 to 3 weeks.

Anyone interested should really consider getting their order in now. I believe the first five are already spoken for. (I'm getting unit number one and even this short wait is killing me.)

OldFart

Posted by: redbullet

I've got mine in.....

I din't notice if you use afermarket sway bars or are still using the stock ones. With the Watts link do you have an opinion about the need for a rear bar?

Posted by: OldFart

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbullet

I've got mine in.....

I din't notice if you use afermarket sway bars or are still using the stock ones. With the Watts link do you have an opinion about the need for a rear bar?

The Watts link is doing some wonderful things to the suspension. I don't claim to even understand exactly how it's making all this better handling that I've experience occur.

But one thing I'm pretty sure of, the Watts link is allowing the combined suspension system (springs, dampers, sway bars, etc.) to work in harmony. Something that the panhard is actually preventing as far as my experiece can tell. So, I believe that you still need the rear swaybar, just as much as you still need rear spings and dampers. The Watts link has no anti-sway capability, it just allows all the other suspension parts to work to their full potential, without allowing lateral movement of the rear axle and removing the imbalance condition caused by the panhard.

As to your other qustion, I'm still using the stock sway bars, because how stiff the bars should be is a subject of much debate and concern.

Taking the suspension to it's extreme, you could put on a combination of very stiff springs and very stiff sway bars, so much so that your car would remain level all the time and just skip across the pavement when you tried to change direction. (And we have all seen race cars in a tight corner with an inside wheel lifted completely off the ground. This is not fast or good for handling. How can less tire contact patch be better than more?)

Weight transfer is a desireable function of a good handling car, but not so much that the car sways excessively and changes the front wheel geometry in relation to the road surface (among other undesireable things) or so little that the car does not maintain good traction on all four tires all the time and looses contact with the track. (And there we have the great mystery of suspension tuning - an art or a science?)

Changing out sway bars can be a tricky issue. The stock bars are well balanced and involved hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of engineering and testing by mother Ford. With aftermarket bars, there is no assurance that the bars have even been tested, much less balanced. I'm not at all impressed with some of the bars showing up on the market with their only claim to fame of being "1-3/8 inch diameter", or "3 times stiffer than stock", etc.

Installing mismatched sway bars is a sure-fire, fast way to upset the balance of your car. You could easily put the car into an incorrectable understeer or oversteer conditon with mis-matched front & rear sway bars. To help correct understeer (engineered into the 05 by Ford) you need a stiffer rear bar. But that doesn't mean just bolting on any aftermarket stiffer rear bar is going to result in a well balanced car - most likely not.

At some point, I'll probably install an adjustable front and an adjustable rear sway bar. Adustable being the key factor, so the bars can be tuned if the car doesn't handle the way I want it to. I'm leaning towards the Steeda parts just because I think they probably put more testing into engineering and balancing these parts than anyone else.

But since the car is handling great with other suspension changes, this is a low priority for me.

Good luck,
OldFart

Posted by: redbullet

I understand the need for bars and what they do. I feel the same about what is availible in the aftermarket as opposed to the factory. My first inclination is to improve, with poly bushings, what we have.

My question about the rear bar is that the factory builds in understeer (push) and installing an adjustable rear bar only, can help bring this closer to neutral.

The reason I asked about the bar is because by changing the placement or height of the propeller (bell crank) the roll couple can be changed, which can effect bar size.

PS, I know you know the meaning of the terms, I just put that in there for those that might not. You know

Posted by: OldFart

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbullet

I understand the need for bars and what they do. I feel the same about what is availible in the aftermarket as opposed to the factory. My first inclination is to improve, with poly bushings, what we have.

My question about the rear bar is that the factory builds in understeer (push) and installing an adjustable rear bar only, can help bring this closer to neutral.

The reason I asked about the bar is because by changing the placement or height of the propeller (bell crank) the roll couple can be changed, which can effect bar size.

PS, I know you know the meaning of the terms, I just put that in there for those that might not. You know

Redbullet,

It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of the way the suspension works. I'm still learning, as this is my first live axle car (all previous were IRS or mid-engined transaxle set-ups).

I've read a lot about roll couple, roll center, etc. but I have to admit I'm still trying to get my hands around this aspect of the suspension. I do know that raising the propeller will raise roll center, but only from discussing it with Jim Fay.

When I installed the pre-production prototype Watts link, I was more concerned with getting the link bars parallel with the axle than improving roll couple, and that set-up worked well beyond my expectations. But maybe it's possible that it would be even better if set-up differently, with roll couple in mind.

At any rate, any discussions you might want to share on roll center, roll couple, etc. will no doubt be appreciated by other members, myself included.

As to properller setting affecting rear sway bar size, I couldn't begin to calculate the proper bar size, which is why I'm hesitant to make any such change right now and why I'll use an adjustable bar when I do decide to go there. I'm also very tired of the expensive trial and error method of modification. Hopefully, an adjustable bar will at least allow me to keep the same bar and just adjust the stiffness to achieve neutral (no push, no pull).

Thanks,
OldFart

Posted by: redbullet

Man........ Has it been two - three weeks yet ?

Posted by: redbullet

Line forms to the rear.

Will be ordering come monday........

Jim says they will start shipping the 29th. 'Course that's a holiday.......

Posted by: redbullet

Ordered from Jim today.... shipping out on the 29th....

Posted by: OldFart

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbullet

Ordered from Jim today.... shipping out on the 29th....

Those of you who ordered the Fays2 watts link are going to be raving to those that didn't about how well the car handles after the change.

Even the smallest of things, like hitting a bump on the highway, is entirely different after the watts link install. You will discover that your suspension works much better than you thought it did.

OldFart

Posted by: redbullet

Time to kick some corvette a$$

Power in the chassis

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...5/DSC00916.jpg

Power under the hood

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3.../Engine007.jpg

Posted by: OldFart

For the others that have ordered (and maybe already installed) the new Fays2 Watts link:

I received mine Monday, but due to work (the dreaded four letter word), I was unable to get it installed until Thursday.

At the same time, I had the BMR rear trailing arm relocation brackets installed. These were a tight fit and it was necessary to use a pry bar on each side to get them fit-up prior to welding.

What we didn't notice (until the entire installation was complete) was the use of the pry bar also shifted the body over the rear-end abour 1/4" farther out to one side. I noticed it and advised the mechanic that the adjustment needed to be made to bring it back to center.

I"m as guilty here as the mechanic. I got a phone call and wasn't watching when he made the adjustment. All he did was loosen the passenger side watts bar and twisted the setting to draw in the axle 1/8" (half the distance out). That repositioned the axle - but it made the passenger bar 1/8" shorter than the drivers side bar.

You wouldn't think that small amount of difference would be an issue, but it is a MAJOR ISSUE. After leaving with the car, I immediately noticed that it was not handling like I expected it to, or even as well as it had handled during the pre-prototype testing. The rear tires were not keeping constant contact with the road surface when hitting uneven pavement and the car leaned more in a right-hand turn than in a left-hand turn.

Suspecting that something in the set-up was off. I took it back today and had him remove both arms and check for exact same length - AaaHaa the one bar was 1/8" longer than the other. This small difference was corrected and now the car handles just as I expected it to - beyond all expectation.

SO PAY ATTENTION TO THE DETAILS - FOLLOW THE INSTALL INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER - or you won't be happy with the results and you'll think that the watts link is just a bunch of hype - it's not if it's installed right.

Good luck,
OldFart

Posted by: redbullet

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldFart

- FOLLOW THE INSTALL INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER - Good luck, OldFart

It came with instructions ?