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CAI (intake/cold-air,mass air,TB) dicussion
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)Posted by: 1969Vette
Ive also done alot of research on CAI and conclude the following....
on the stock intake system, the biggest/easiest restriction is the paper filter /airbox assembly in front. This will give you the most 'bang for buck' gains. all other ways to improve airflow do little without big $$$ invested.
*Throttle bodies are a waste of money, because unless you port match them to the intake, you will see very little to no power gains.
*Mass air sensors are a waste of money, because unless you plan on super/turbocharging your engine, will give you little to no gains. Your stock sensor flows plenty for an N/A setup light-mid tune/modding (bolt ons).
with this being said, unless you are planning really big things, these mods will cost you $400+ for maybe 3-5RWHP/TQ.
so, if most gains (80-90%) will be made from just the tubing/filter/location... lets take a look at some intakes
MAC intakes I dont know too much about, someone else could give more info then myself, but from my experience (MAC exhaust on a '95 3.8) and from what Ive read, MAC are not very good quality, do not give as much power gain, etc. I would not get or recommend, but Im not 100% sure. It looks sort-of ebayish to me.
K&N's intake is more of a straight through design and has less 90* turns for improved flow and mass air readings. Claims on RPM Outlet and the dyno chart provided show 10.07HP increase. BUT, if you look, this is on an already modded v6 or more powerful car with and increase of 4.756%. A s5tock 3.8 may only see 6-7HP at this rate.
BBK's intake makes the same claims on RPM outlets site, no dyno chart, but I would suspect they tested it in the same way; on a higher powered car, to give higher gain #s.
Demolet's Densecharger on the other hand, is similar design, but made of ABS plastic (supposedly less heat transfer), cheaper (by ~$20), from a company with a better reputation than rpm outlet, and dyno tests show bigger increases. This dyno test, on their site, has stock 3.8 #s to show real gains. 12.5HP and 14.8TQ. However, they also show just dyno runs 1 and 4, but I trust these gains more than I would on a higher powered car dyno where they were obvious in their misleading. I am going with the full length kit, or whichever is in the dyno run they show.
knn (bbk) 10.07hp 211.72 to 221.79 = 4.756% increase in HP
demolet 12.50hp 156.00 to 165.50 = 6.090% increase in HP
14.80tq 186.70 to 201.50 = 7.927% increase in TQ
is this a correct conclusion? are the densecharger intakes the ones to go with?
Posted by: 1969Vette
also a big reduction in restriction is from the pipe that goes from the mass air to the TB, instead of the stock flexable, bumpy, not smooth pipe to a smooth pipe. this is why the full length systems give more power than just the mass forward systems.
Posted by: Jimbo_Jack
whats the best make it simple for me
Posted by: 1969Vette
from what ive read...
#1 home made - straight through pipe, no 90* turns, smooth reduction from air filter to TB... I believe 3" down to 2"... or 3 1/2 down to 2 1/2... you'd have to check size, I dont know off the top of my head
from what you can buy...
#2 3d system from demolet.com
#3 k&n
#4 bbk
#5 mac
#6 ebay
that's what I got out of what ive read, but some also say the ebay systems actually give you the best bang for the buck. they give about 2-3 less HP, but are about $100 cheaper. they usually need a couple small pieces that dont come with the kit, but they are cheap pieces.
so personally I would go with the 3d system (only $169), unless you want to make your own or take your chance on ebay. Im pretty sure im right with this ranking, but I could be wrong. mac and bbk might be switched. The 3d is plastic, but looks good. if you care about it being chrome, then youd have to get bbk, mac, ebay, etc.
Posted by: Aussie XAXB
I wasn't able to find the best picture to illustrate my point but this one is good enough....
The cold air kits that are designed like this one, where they go to a corner of the engine compartment and are "sheltered" from "hot engine compartment air".........just where is the "cold air" being sucked from?? I have seen many cars with a kit that looks just like this one, and there is NO WHERE that fresh air is able to get to the air filter. It is not behind an opening in the grill, it is not by a hole in the inner wheel well, it is just "there", stuck in a corner with no good air source. You are not benefitting from this one bit and you probably are actually hurting your air flow.
Now this one here....
....is actually routed to a hole in the inner wheel well and is drawing fresh outside air into the engine.
My whole point is just because it says "cold air" (a very relative term) doesn't mean it is getting a good flow of fresh outside air into the engine. Just look and determine where this wonderful air is coming from.
I see this same problem on new cars. Our 2002 Mercury Villager has to try to suck air from right behind the left headlight where there is no source of good air. It seems the engineers are only concerned with sucking ANY air at all!
Steve
Posted by: 1969Vette
I went with demolet.com's 3d full length system its sortof like the yellow picture. i think thats actually a picture of a mach 1.
It takes it from the fenderwell and I call and asked if it was the one in on the dyno chart, which it is. It was $169 total (free shipping - UPS). The dyno shows 12HP and 14TQ to the rear wheels, with my automatic I should see around 9-10HP and 11TQ to the wheels if the dyno chart is true.
"Before run: 3.8 v6 with stock air system, 98*F temp in dyno room
After run: 3.8 v6 with Full Length System, 98*F temp in dyno room
That's 12.5 RWHP and 14.8ftlbs of torque! This is an independent test."
Posted by: RGR
Quote:
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Originally Posted by 1969Vette
Ive also done alot of research on CAI and conclude the following....
on the stock intake system, the biggest/easiest restriction is the paper filter /airbox assembly in front. This will give you the most 'bang for buck' gains. all other ways to improve airflow do little without big $$$ invested. Good observation, hence the continued popularity of the stock replacement K&N filters... *Throttle bodies are a waste of money, because unless you port match them to the intake, you will see very little to no power gains. Depends on your year, the 94-98's (with port matching) can theoretically (by my calculations) use the BBK 56mm and get something out of it, but I would also use a good CAI with it at a bare minimum. It will work much better with cam and porting, and higher compression ratio will be a plus also. *Mass air sensors are a waste of money, because unless you plan on super/turbocharging your engine, will give you little to no gains. Your stock sensor flows plenty for an N/A setup light-mid tune/modding (bolt ons). It actually flows plenty with most HCI swaps, and I have seen dyno data to back this one up. I consulted on a pretty hot stroker about 3 years ago and the MAF was restrictive around 250 RWHP (5 speed) NA so save your $$$ unless you intend to surpass that mark. with this being said, unless you are planning really big things, these mods will cost you $400+ for maybe 3-5RWHP/TQ. Ditto! so, if most gains (80-90%) will be made from just the tubing/filter/location... lets take a look at some intakes MAC intakes I dont know too much about, someone else could give more info then myself, but from my experience (MAC exhaust on a '95 3.8) and from what Ive read, MAC are not very good quality, do not give as much power gain, etc. I would not get or recommend, but Im not 100% sure. It looks sort-of ebayish to me. K&N's intake is more of a straight through design and has less 90* turns for improved flow and mass air readings. Claims on RPM Outlet and the dyno chart provided show 10.07HP increase. BUT, if you look, this is on an already modded v6 or more powerful car with and increase of 4.756%. A s5tock 3.8 may only see 6-7HP at this rate. BBK's intake makes the same claims on RPM outlets site, no dyno chart, but I would suspect they tested it in the same way; on a higher powered car, to give higher gain #s. Demolet's Densecharger on the other hand, is similar design, but made of ABS plastic (supposedly less heat transfer), cheaper (by ~$20), from a company with a better reputation than rpm outlet, and dyno tests show bigger increases. This dyno test, on their site, has stock 3.8 #s to show real gains. 12.5HP and 14.8TQ. However, they also show just dyno runs 1 and 4, but I trust these gains more than I would on a higher powered car dyno where they were obvious in their misleading. I am going with the full length kit, or whichever is in the dyno run they show. knn (bbk) 10.07hp 211.72 to 221.79 = 4.756% increase in HP demolet 12.50hp 156.00 to 165.50 = 6.090% increase in HP 14.80tq 186.70 to 201.50 = 7.927% increase in TQ is this a correct conclusion? are the densecharger intakes the ones to go with? |
them last I knew of, and they seem like a good piece, but the
"Bling-Factor " is zero (or negative to some) but functionality
rules if it makes substantially more Torque & HP.
Your RWHP and RWTq gains should be similar to what a 5 speed does,
with the auto you are starting out lower and the gains should be
similar. Ask me sometime why the "20% Rule" is bogus...
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