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"Bubbling in Coolant System " Poll Please
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: PULNGZ

This will help my cause with Blown Head Gasket Problems.

PULNGZ.........Keeps blowing head gaskets (on the Drivers Side).

Bob Pucell of CE Racing is claiming that "Bubbling in my Coolant System is Normal & OK?" I personally don't think so!

So I woud like to do a poll here. Is "Bubbling in the Coolant System" OK..............Yes or No?
Feel free to elaborate if necessary.

Posted by: LILBLKSNAKE

Quote:

Answer

could be a faulty thermostat,or it could be a sign that your head gasket is about to blow ,or last of all your timing could be out of sync.
Answer 2

Your cooling fans are not turning on. It is not normal for your overflow tank to boil like that. It is true that your radiator is overflowing into the reserve tank, but that means your radiator is boiling. Check for blown fuses or relays for your cooling fans. IF theya re fine. run your engine for about 15 minutes and drive. When you temp level is at normal operating temp open your hood with the engine runing and see if your fans are on. If they are, then you may have a bad thermostat or a plugged radiator, or a bad water pump. If the fans are not on, get your cooling fan switch replaced if your car has one. Check your temp

Here's a few replies I got

Posted by: EastCoast5.0

No I don't think thats normal. Keep in mind that the boiling point for a 50/50 mix of coolant and water is about 265*F. If the motor were to get that hot I'd think you'd have some engine trouble!

It sounds like a headgasket to me.

Posted by: EastCoast5.0

BTW, what headgaskets are you using?

Posted by: Mustang5L5

Never had anything bubble in my cooling system.

Posted by: PULNGZ

Quote:

BTW, what headgaskets are you using?

Cometic!

Quote:

Keep in mind that the boiling point for a 50/50 mix of coolant and water is about 265*F. If the motor were to get that hot I'd think you'd have some engine trouble!

It's is "Bubbling" at IDLE, via cool start and beyond.

[quote][could be a faulty thermostat,or it could be a sign that your head gasket is about to blow/QUOTE]Head Gasket Is blown for sure at this point.

Quote:

Your cooling fans are not turning on. It is not normal for your overflow tank to boil like that. It is true that your radiator is overflowing into the reserve tank, but that means your radiator is boiling. Check for blown fuses or relays for your cooling fans. IF theya re fine. run your engine for about 15 minutes and drive. When you temp level is at normal operating temp open your hood with the engine runing and see if your fans are on. If they are, then you may have a bad thermostat or a plugged radiator, or a bad water pump. If the fans are not on, get your cooling fan switch replaced if your car has one

All these items have been checked, and double checked.......Basically any coolant related items have been replaced with new right down to the Griffin radiator, New Water Pump (x2), I run Electric fans......with automatic relay.

306 w/Vortech V2-SQ 8-10lbs boost/38lbs injectors/FMU
PS: Gases are confirm as present in the coolant system based on "Leak Down Test" performed.
PS: At this point engine is "Pinging" under detenation. When I dial back my "Vortech - Boost Retard" from "0" to "3" Pinging goes away. Originally Engine builer said always leave it set to "0"?
______________________________________________

Please keep this Poll going!

Posted by: only90s

Bob,

I forget now...does it overheat when it is driven on the road or does it still stay around the 180-200 range???

Do you know what Bob used for Head Bolts: Stock or ARP? not studs right?

Posted by: only90s

Interesting thread:

http://forums.corral.net/forums/show...bubbling+boost

and another:

http://forums.corral.net/forums/show...bubbling+boost

Posted by: PULNGZ

Quote:

I forget now...does it overheat when it is driven on the road or does it still stay around the 180-200 range???

Depends.........If it is babied and with shift points no higher than 2000rpm, it's fine. Under normal driving, Better yet....."Under Load," & under boost it will Over-Pressurize, but doesn't ever OVERHEAT. Temp always goes up.....but never out of control. Radiator/Overflow will relieve itself at 16PSI (My radiator cap rating).

The wacky part......All this only happend under load on the street, ESPECIALLY under Boost. We previousily test all this on the Dyno (to simulate street driving)......drove it like this on the dyno for 20 minutes....simulating highway and backroad driving with poressure gauge on radiator.......it would basically keep creating pressure to the point beyond the rating of the cap (the pressure gauge allowed for higher reading.....without blowing. After testing further......running the car as it stands at idle for 15-20 minutes we discovered that the pressure continues to build.....to the point of where it would burst my 16psi radiator cap?!?!?!? (And yes.....Radiator Cap is NEW!)

Timing was suspect, so that was looked at. Base timing set to 14 degrees, and Advanced timing is confirmed safe.......as boost conditions were simulated on the dyno for confirmation. There is talk that the "Balancer" off & not set properly.....purely speculation......until enginge goes broken down/disected/ for evalution.

I am just trying to put my finger on exactly what the root cause is in advance to the disecting og the engine......AS THIS WILL BE THE 3rd TIME REMOVING THE ENGINE.....FOR THE SAME PROBLEM.....OVER & OVER!!

Posted by: only90s

Bob and I have previously discussed this at length

....the evidence suggests the Detonation caused the Cometic Head Gaskets to fail....your Air Fuel Ratio has been tested and appears fine, so the TIMING is the issue...

-Detonation with the Boost Retard set at 0

-No Detonation with Boost Retard set at 3 degrees per pound of boost(meaning 15 degrees of timing is being pulled on total timing)

So it appears the Tuner put way too much timing in the Tune

or

The Builder assembled the motor incorrectly/balancer off, so the Tuner thought he was at say 17 degrees total and was in fact way off

If anyone else has any thoughts or theories...we would both love to hear them

Posted by: bullitt5177

How's the A/F ratio?? Lean mixture will cause detonation as well. Sounds to me like it's overheating off the detonation, and that's blowing the gaskets.

EDIT: Oops, nevermind. I just looked at the previous post. It does sound like timing.

Posted by: PULNGZ

[/quote]

Quote:

If anyone else has any thoughts or theories...we would both love to hear them

Big time on this comment/request.........Master Mechanics speak up please!

Quote:

How's the A/F ratio??

Safe & Good..........Dynojet 02 gauge fully installed recently to monitor and aid in testing.
.

Posted by: bullitt5177

Is the coolant actually boiling, or is it just air bubbles?

Posted by: EastCoast5.0

Hmmmm. Those links posted about the head studs/bolts are interesting. You're using ARP stuff right??

From what I've heard I agree with mark, it's a timing issue. Too much timing is put into it and it's detonating under boost, lifting the heads off the block, and causing your headgasket problems. A side effect is the coolant bubbling. Whether it's a balancer issue or tune issue is tough to say.

Have you tried tried Fel-Pro gaskets at all?

Posted by: PULNGZ

Quote:

Have you tried tried Fel-Pro gaskets at all?

Originally when the Engine was built (Day_1), Fel-Pro gaskets were used. Upon the first couple of drives, opened it up on the highway upon entering the on ramp........and the Cork blew out of the drivers from left quadrent of the Valve Cover gasket. The 2nd time the Newly built engine was re-done......cometics were chosen at that point.

Posted by: PULNGZ

Quote:

Hmmmm. Those links posted about the head studs/bolts are interesting. You're using ARP stuff right??

From what I've heard I agree with mark, it's a timing issue. Too much timing is put into it and it's detonating under boost, lifting the heads off the block, and causing your headgasket problems. A side effect is the coolant bubbling. Whether it's a balancer issue or tune issue is tough to say.

I'm pretty confident that this is the "ROOT & True Problem" here. This has been the general consensus.

I asked the Builder Bob Pucell of CE Racing to correct what I paid him to build properly......and "He flat out....Said NO!"

Posted by: EastCoast5.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by PULNGZ

Ahhh I'm sorry man, thats real bummer when shops don't back their work. Best of luck to you. Keep us updated.

Posted by: badass98svt

Bubbling coolant at COLD START is a bad head gsket Boberino.
Call Pucell back, give him a rash of shlt ant tell him he NEEDS to fix it.
Does he know you contacted a lawyer?

Who will be doing the work? Take it elsewhere, and give CE the bill. If he refuses to fix it, then you have no choice but to have someone else work on it, right?

But no matter how he slices it, he needs to pay the bill.

Posted by: LILBLKSNAKE

Quote:

Originally Posted by PULNGZ

I asked the Builder Bob Pucell of CE Racing to correct what I paid him to build properly......and "He flat out....Said NO!"

You would think that in 2008, with all the Mustang forums, that he might want to make good on what he was paid to do so that people could see the car and ask where it was done.

I still think Mark has something to do with sabotaging it, because he likes being "King of the Foxes" around here

Posted by: badass98svt

Quote:

Originally Posted by LILBLKSNAKE

I still think Mark has something to do with sabotaging it, because he likes being "King of the Foxes" around here

ED, you've always been the "accused" one (just ask Alex...and Scarecrow...and Mike...and Ian...and...)
Now you are the "accusee"

If I didn't know any better, I'd say all signs point to ED

Posted by: LILBLKSNAKE

Quote:

Originally Posted by badass98svt

If I didn't know any better, I'd say all signs point to ED

I didn't meet Bob til ED DAY, and the damage was already done- maybe by PJ (aka Sits to Pee)

Posted by: PULNGZ

Quote:

(aka Sits to Pee)

Ed, when I read that I was on the floor. (PJ didn't tell me he was Indian either.)

Posted by: LILBLKSNAKE

Quote:

Originally Posted by PULNGZ

Ed, when I read that I was on the floor. (PJ didn't tell me he was Indian either.)

In his old indian village PJ was called "Sitting Wuss"

Posted by: PULNGZ

Quote:

But no matter how he slices it, he needs to pay the bill.

PJ......Your so right. Come hell or high water he will pay!
I'm not sure if you all recall my post when he "YANKED" the engine (Repair #2) after the first Blown Head Gasket event. (Recall - Photo with "Sunday Newspaper on the engine."

He said "No" to this current repair / Repair #3........of which is: The SAME EXACT CONDITION as as Repair #2.
He is missing & has missed the boat on something!?!?!?!

Posted by: MCRPARTS

Bob,

Is the breather hose (on the filler tube,on the valve cover pass side)connected to the throttle body or the air box.If it goes from the oil filler tube to the throttle body on the intake YOUR PRESSURIZING your crank case,this may be the culprit too.

You should also go back to the 9 blade stock fan and shroud w/ the DSO police clutch like Mark and I.Electric fans on a street car with a blower don't work as well as the Police fan clutch.Mark and I have booth been there with blower/over heating issues.

Tony

Posted by: PULNGZ

Note the "Milky Concouction" in the front of the block.

Beyond the current Blown Head Gasket problem.....I suspect there is a "Stress Fracture" in the current block of some sort as a result of this prior Blown Head Gasket.........He did not Magnablock the block during Repair #2, of which would have ruled this probability out.
Recall that this engine originally Dyno'd at 517RWHP on a NEW stock block. He did install AARP Head Bolts.....but SHOULD have used STUDS!

I'm going on & on......and just getting myself more PISSED as I type here.............

Posted by: PULNGZ

Quote:

Is the breather hose (on the filler tube,on the valve cover pass side)connected to the throttle body or the air box.If it goes from the oil filler tube to the throttle body on the intake YOUR PRESSURIZING your crank case,this may be the culprit too

It goes into the passenger fender well / near the K&N Conical air filter.....and is spaded of.

Quote:

You should also go back to the 9 blade stock fan and shroud w/ the DSO police clutch like Mark and I.Electric fans on a street car with a blower don't work as well as the Police fan clutch.Mark and I have booth been there with blower/over heating issues.

I got mixed enotions about that.....but I hear what your saying.

Posted by: EastCoast5.0

Yeap I remember those pics bob. Thats bogus he repaired it that time and now he wont. Maybe he should have chased the original problem instead of doing a quick fix.

Posted by: bullitt5177

Did he check both heads for straightness??

Posted by: only90s

Quote:

Originally Posted by LILBLKSNAKE

You would think that in 2008, with all the Mustang forums, that he might want to make good on what he was paid to do so that people could see the car and ask where it was done.

I still think Mark has something to do with sabotaging it, because he likes being "King of the Foxes" around here

Not true...But funny

Posted by: only90s

Quote:

Originally Posted by PULNGZ

Note the "Milky Concouction" in the front of the block.

Beyond the current Blown Head Gasket problem.....I suspect there is a "Stress Fracture" in the current block of some sort as a result of this prior Blown Head Gasket.........He did not Magnablock the block during Repair #2, of which would have ruled this probability out.
Recall that this engine originally Dyno'd at 517RWHP on a NEW stock block. He did install AARP Head Bolts.....but SHOULD have used STUDS!

I'm going on & on......and just getting myself more PISSED as I type here.............

That milky condition you point out could be from:

-The Water Pump Leaking or
-The Head Gasket Seeping (cometics are known for seeping oil/coolant-mine does on the passenger side-but no one even knows

until now)

But as you point out...Magnafluxing the block could have ruled out any cracks.(that is also the area they crack)

Posted by: awwyea

Beating a dead horse here, but the problem was more than likely caused by the timing/detonation. Even a little is very bad with a power adder. You're also likely right on about the block being cracked now. If it had only happened once, I wouldn't be as concerned, but 3 times over a short period of time indicates that the extreme pressure build up needs an outlet of greater relief than just the head gasket. The percussion from the detonation needs somewhere to go, so it's gonna find the weakest spots.

I wouldn't even waste time with the heads. They are probably so warped from the heat and the pressure that they will never make a good seal again no matter how much they are machined.

Bubbles in the coolant are a sign of an air leak. A poorly seated head and intake are two culprits for this.

Where is the car now? Don't take it back to CE Racing. Get new heads, have the block checked and if it is still good, start from scratch somewhere else. As for making CE Racing foot the bill, I won't discourage you but it may be a wasted effort unless they were the only ones to ever touch your car.

Posted by: PULNGZ

Quote:

Beating a dead horse here, but the problem was more than likely caused by the timing/detonation. Even a little is very bad with a power adder. You're also likely right on about the block being cracked now. If it had only happened once, I wouldn't be as concerned, but 3 times over a short period of time indicates that the extreme pressure build up needs an outlet of greater relief than just the head gasket. The percussion from the detonation needs somewhere to go, so it's gonna find the weakest spots.

I wouldn't even waste time with the heads. They are probably so warped from the heat and the pressure that they will never make a good seal again no matter how much they are machined.

Bubbles in the coolant are a sign of an air leak. A poorly seated head and intake are two culprits for this.

Where is the car now? Don't take it back to CE Racing. Get new heads, have the block checked and if it is still good, start from scratch somewhere else. As for making CE Racing foot the bill, I won't discourage you but it may be a wasted effort unless they were the only ones to ever touch your car

You are good.....Real Good!! Great feedback.......

CE Racing was the only one to do the work, to include the tuning. He basically told me that all engine work should be performed by himself on my car, since he has intimate knowledge of his own build.

Posted by: awwyea

One other thing on the timing. Did I read that right that the original set up was for timing at 14? What was your maximum boost on the dyno? I apologize if I missed it somewhere already in the post.

You need to be able to retard it 1-3 degrees per pound of boost pressure but no more than 15 degrees.

Posted by: ToplessPony94

Hey, Bob! I thought I saw PULNGZ strapped to the dyno at Dana's tonight. Was that you, and if so, what's happening? Something good, I hope!

Posted by: slowpony

Have some one do a reactive block test to see if you are getting combustion gasses into the cooling system. It is easy to do and only takes a few minutes, and can rule out some possable causes.

Posted by: PULNGZ

Quote:

Hey, Bob! I thought I saw PULNGZ strapped to the dyno at Dana's tonight. Was that you, and if so, what's happening?

We (Involved parties) were performing some additional testing on PULNGZ. Trying to isolate some conditions. Proved to be unsuccessfull. Root cause still is undertermined at this point. "It's a VERY tough condition to fully describe, and/or isolate."

The saga continues........

Posted by: PULNGZ

I found this thread on Stangnet.com......and I believe that it is the:
"Root Cause of my problem" all this time.

Could some of you Tech Heads look at the thread and let me know if I am correct.

My engine bay has been scorching hot after driving the car!

" I THINK SOME FORM OF INTERCOOLING IS MY ANSWER HERE!!!!"
http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=588714

Posted by: awwyea

The intercooler can certainly contribute to the overheating problem that is blowing the head gaskets. I am sure that this fix would help resolve some of the overheating issue, but it's not the primary cause of your problem. The intercooler doesn't have anything to do with the air leak and bubbling.

How old is your intercooler? How long has it been on the car? Have you had your IAT measured on the dyno?

Posted by: PULNGZ

Quote:

The intercooler can certainly contribute to the overheating problem that is blowing the head gaskets. I am sure that this fix would help resolve some of the overheating issue, but it's not the primary cause of your problem. The intercooler doesn't have anything to do with the air leak and bubbling.

How old is your intercooler? How long has it been on the car? Have you had your IAT measured on the dyno?

Actually no installer intercooler on the vehicle as of current. I originally had the Sno Performance kit installed and everything was somewhat fine. The engine was producing 537rwhp and I had to fill that system constantly........so I decided to have it removed and then re-tuned accordingly. Then I started to really have the bulk of my major problems?!?!?!

I know that I still have a pending / major problem with the current engine.....but.....really wanted to inquire as to if "moving forward," if some type of intercooler means will aid in the longevity/safety of the engine (Whicj I am confident - it will / especially after reading the thread).

There is "ALOT" of chatter about problems performance engines can experience moving forward now with Ethanol in gasoline....leading to detenation problems.

__________________________________________________ _

IAT hasn't been measured. How can this be performed? As I think mine is/has been sky high all along (PS: All temp gauges read normal during basic driving.....say drive 20 minutes on the highway - then come to a stop - and everthing sky rockets).

Posted by: awwyea

The intercooler is a must have with a power adder. IAT can be measured on the dyno when the OBD II is connected monitoring your car's systems.

The detonation issue with Ethanol can be alleviated by adding octane booster to your fuel when you fill up.

Posted by: PULNGZ

Thanks Carol......always great feedback from you!

Posted by: awwyea

Glad to be able to help. That's what the extended Mustang family is for !!!